Their coat colors include black, white, brown, blue, harlequin, merle, and combinations of those colors. Deep-chested dogs have narrower, taller ribcages. JavaScript is disabled. Maremma Sheepdog. These tasks require a large dose of strength and tenacity. The hair types for all Chihuahuas vary greatly and usually do not correlate with their hair length. Pros and Cons of Owning a Bluetick Coonhound Lab Mix. My mission now is to find the most helpful content on anything related to dogs and share it with fellow hardworking hound lovers. They make a great companion and are protective too. He seems to have characteristics of a swimmer pup, but he also has a very weird chest his ribs come out further than the other puppies and sinks in in the middle his chest feels more like a box than rounded. Mixed breed dogs could inherit the chest of any breed in their bloodline. While the chest shape may not seem like a big deal, it could help you determine what each breed is built to do. No doubt this canine is brave, confident, and tenacious. Their thin, lean bodies make them extremely fast and agile. The Pembroke Welsh Corgi is a small-to-medium-sized dog with a sturdy build and short stature. This is fairly frequent that the boney structures are exaggerated in puppy and look less so at maturity. They are strong, muscular, and have heavy coats that come in colors of black, brown, and white. This breed is known for its aggressiveness towards strangers or intruders, they are common as guard or police dogs because they are Intelligent, fearless, energetic, obedient, loyal, alert, and confident. They are very strong, adaptable, and friendly. The treatment that your veterinarian chooses for your puppy depends on which type of chest bone deformity he has and how severe it is. Around 10 to 12 inches tall and weighing around 28 to 20 lb, the breed has a low-set body, stubby tail, large pointy and erect ears and intelligent expression. That bump can be felt even in young puppies. This Landseer is called "Sax" . From 367 quotes ranging from $200 - $5,000. Although Basset Hounds do require exercise, they are better suited to walks than more energetic . This allows a more exaggerated condition that contributes to the stomach flipping on itself. Jane Meggitt has been a writer for more than 20 years. Note the straightening of the costal arches as the heart enlarged and the sternum moved ventrally. They enjoy completing tasks and pleasing their owners. Dogs that were bred to hunt, With their active, loyal, and eager-to-learn nature, English bull terriers can make great family dogs for older children and experienced dog owners. . Many deep-chested dogs love running, agility games, and playing fetch Click here to see the full list of dog breeds that love playing fetch. Naturally, we're going to start with the "American . Rottweiler. The strong, muscular, and rather intimidating Bullmastiff breed has a relatively high occurrence of brindle coats, making the breed look even more imposing. Coat color is linked to dog genetics. Ive started noticing how other dogs at the dog park all have different chests, so I looked into it and found out that there are three types of dog chests: A dog can have a deep chest, a barrel chest, or a round chest, depending on the shape of their rib cage. Saint Bernards were originally bred to locate and rescue travelers buried by snowdrifts and avalanches. But, sometimes, you may find the first digit in some breed. Echocardiography, a sonographic image of the heart, will be used to further evaluate the heart, its functioning ability, and possible cardiac defects. Click here to find out how much a dog DNA test costs and what youll find out for your money. Advertisement. It the deformation is mild, there is usually no need for treatment of any kind, but you should set an appointment with your veterinarian if you suspect your puppy may be suffering from pectus excavatum or pectus carinatum. Most of them need day-to-day exercise to keep from being destructive or overweight. The dog has a rough, shaggy outer coat and dense undercoat that offers great protection in harsh weather. Average Cost. Apr 2, 2011. Severely affected dogs usually have short life spans unless they undergo surgery to correct the deformity. A barrel chest in dogs can be described as having a very round chest that takes the shape or looks like a barrel. The breast bone is a great and prominent feature in Dachshunds. Most dogs have round chests that are not tall enough or short enough to be deep or barrel chests. Because of this, it is easy for the stomach to twist and turn on itself. Most dogs have round chests that arent classified as deep or barrel chests, though they may have slightly deeper or slightly more barrel-shaped chests than other dogs. Typically, this breed comes with a long barrel-shaped chest to be able to power his deep, loud bark. Today we are going to address one term that is frequently used in the veterinary industry most particularly in relation tocanine bloat: barrel chested dog breeds.. A dog can have a deep chest, a barrel chest, or a round chest, depending on the shape of their rib cage. Heres more info about pica and how to manage it. A prominent tibia tuberosity is present in the proximal end of the dog tibia bone. Often a stockier build for digging, hunting, etc. As an Amazon Associate, TrendingBreeds.com earns from qualifying purchases. The keel, also known as the body, is the bone between the dog's front legs, while the xiphoid process takes up the rear of the sternum. They are energetic, friendly, and very protective. They live up to 10 13 years and weigh up to 4045 kg for males and 3235 kg for females. I have two dogs that are more or less the same height. Below you'll find 22 different spotted dog breeds, with each of them carrying distinctively different pup personalities! Their coats are usually bicolored or tricolored and can include black, brown, white, red, and tan. . Boxers are fighting dogs, they are also barrel-chested and are medium to large. They live quite long as their life expectancy is about 13 15 years, this breed possesses a lovely temperament: Playful, Bright, Obedient, Nimble-footed, Well-built, and Quick. However, not all of them suffer the condition. It's the foremost point of the dogs body. Mastiffs are very large and muscular. I was just wondering if that's normal or if it's something that needs to be looked at. Deep-chestedness refers to the length of the chest from the back to the sternum, or bottom of the chest, and is usually associated with a proportionately narrower chest. Although an experienced breeder will keep an eye out for such issues early on, it is a good idea to take your pointer dog on regular vet visits. This breed is a barrel-chested dog and can look imposing but even as big as they look, Great Danes are sweet and affectionate pets, they love to play with children and are gentle with them. Like the other joints in the body, the SC joint is covered with a smooth, slippery substance called articular cartilage. A Great Dane is an enormous dog with a gentle spirit. Irish Wolfhounds are large dogs with shaggy coats. They have short, sharp ears and short coats. I don't remember either of my previous dobes having this much of a prominent sternum, though neither of them were particularly nearly as well-bred as Kaia. Back Clip - Back-clip harnesses attach on top of a dog's back or shoulders. Protect yourself and your pet. This kind of deformity can correct itself as the puppy grows so the veterinarian may suggest you wait and try physical therapy for a few months before getting splints or surgery. Coat and Color: Hard, wiry, dense, straight, short topcoat, with a softer undercoat; head and ears are tan, and the body is a mix of tan and black or dark grizzle. Monique loves researching and sharing what she finds out about taking the best care of animals. Just remember, we dont all fit into the standard for how others think we should look and that goes for dogs too. They are very affectionate and do well with children if introduced to them early in life. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. Dogs that exhibit deep chests were mostly bred for running since they have high speed and endurance. But its important to know what youre getting into if you bring a bull terrier home to stay. Thank you for your question. Barrel-chested dogs usually have thicker necks and their front legs are further apart than deep- and round-chested dogs. Subsequent studies have shown breed differences (Table). In simple terms, bloat is when the stomach twists or goes through torsion. If the deformity is mild and is not compressing any major organs such as the lungs and heart, there is no need for treatment. Deep-chested dog breeds have a chest that extends to their elbows or below. You don't have to choose between your pet and your wallet when it comes to expensive vet visits. Keeshonds were originally bred to be guard dogs and companions. These dogs have a deep ribcage and a 'heavy' chest. Dog Mouth Cancer: Symptoms, Treatment and Life Expectancy. Dogs come in all shapes and sizes, and those with deep chests may be more adapted to certain tasks or activities or prone to certain illnesses or health problems. We were here, serving the savannah cat community before Facebook and Instagram! Dogs were bred for different reasons, which . They have a gentle temperament, but they are also protective of their owners and are strong and brave. 2. It would be best to have the puppy seen by a veterinarian, as they can examine the puppy and see if there's anything that can be done. Use puzzle feeders, put an obstacle in their feeding dish, and spread food out so that your dog cannot eat as quickly and inadvertently take in excess air when feeding, which contributes to gas build up and bloat. Feed several small meals instead of one or two large ones so your companion is not as hungry and is less likely to bolt food or develop blockages and gas. Separate dogs, and other pets, at feeding time if competitive eating is contributing to them gulping down their meals. Avoid strenuous exercise before and after meals. Without emergency veterinary treatment, usually including surgery, to correct the condition, the condition is fatal. In pectus excavatum, the sternum and costal cartilages are deformed, resulting in a horizontal narrowing of the chest, primarily on the posterior side. American Staffordshire Terriers were bred to be fighting dogs. It is not uncommon to come across labs with deep, narrow chests but this is not the breed standard. They are affectionate, good with children and other animals, and enjoy doing purpose-driven tasks. Wellness lets pet parents compare insurance plans from leading companies like PetPlan and Embrace. They are good with kids and love to cuddle and please their owners. They weigh between 55 and 90 pounds, depending on the sex. As well as fur that comes in a beautiful black, they have bushy eyebrows and whiskers! The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Theres no one size fits all here so lets explore where a dogs chest is, how to determine the chest type, why dogs have different chests, and the differences, traits and health concerns of deep-chested and barrel-chested breeds. They are also easy to train and love to please their owners. This breed is not hypoallergenic, their height is about 43 - 46 cm. The Bouvier des Flandres is a large, impressive dog that can grow to about 27 inches high and weigh as much as 95 pounds (43 kilograms). Owners of deep-chested dogs should be aware of the risk of this serious disorder and take steps necessary to decrease the risk and get medical attention if it occurs. 1. You may observe your dog trying to sleep quietly sitting up. There are two types of chest bone deformities: pectus excavatum (funnel chest) is a separation of the sternum and cartilage, thorax narrowing, and unusually shaped ribs causing a flat or sunken chest. Image Credit: BORINA OLGA, Shutterstock. You can use the chest shape to get a better idea of what breeds are in a dog, but the only way to know for sure is to take a dog DNA test. They are very friendly and agreeable. Physical therapy is usually necessary whether your puppy has surgery or not. They range from white to black and can also be bicolor. If you have questions about whether or not a barrel chest is a desired feature in a particular breed we recommend looking over theAKCregulations for that particular breed. With it, he can easily navigate impediments without injuring himself. These dogs have built quite a reputation since their original departure from Germany. Deep chests fall as low as, if not lower than, the dogs elbows in its front legs. They were originally bred for the sport of bull-baiting, which was popular in England in the 13th century. They are very affectionate and love to please their owners. They were originally bred as fierce hunters and are known for their keen eyesight, sense of smell, and inability to bark normally. Our big, giant list of large dog breeds begins with pups that start around 50 pounds and finishes with the largest breeds, which typically start over 100 pounds and often weigh in at well over the . He doesnt mind sleeping all day as long as he has enough food and water. GDV is a life-threatening condition and requires medical attention. Deep-Chested Dog Breeds. The axis has a dens, which projects cranially to allow pivotal motion between the atlas . They stand between 11 and 13 inches tall and usually weigh under 28 pounds. If you are looking for a dog that will do a task or job, you will want to make sure it is built to handle that task. 27613 The term barrel-chested refers to dogs that have a very round chest that takes on the appearance of a barrel. Well be covering the best big black dogs, from the Rottweiler to the Hovawart, on this list. . Well, apparently theres more to the shape of a dogs chest than meets the eye. They are very loyal, brave, and smart. There are a variety of deep-chested dog breeds. There is a genetic predisposition in some dog breeds, particularly brachycephalic breeds, but pectus excavatum can occur spontaneously in any breed. The neck is carried straight and the topline is level. The easiest way to determine if a dog has a deep chest or a barrel chest is to look at a standing dog from the front and side. Begin by running your hand from below the throat, down the front of the dog and between his front legs. Entlebucher Mountain Dog. Also known as pectus galinatum, this condition occurs rarely in dogs, but when it does it's obvious in puppyhood. 13-15 years. Published: 09/15/2017, edited: 10/21/2021. They are clever, playful, patient, athletic, and very protective. Always consult a licensed veterinarian if you have any health or behavior concerns about your pets. Click on a photo below to view more details about that dog breed. They are muscular and mischievous. These X-rays will reveal the actual deformities and related structural abnormalities. The sooner you insure your pet, the more protection youll have from unexpected vet costs. If It's Poisonous to Ants, Is It Poisonous to Dogs? The coat has a soft, voluminous texture, which makes the dog resemble a small, white bear. Even after treatment, over 40% of dogs dont make it. "Cane Corso males are 25-27.5 inches from the highest point of the shoulder to the ground, and females are 23.5 to 26 inches," says Dr. Mary R. Burch, director of AKC Family Dog and certified applied animal behaviorist. Gently brushing their coat once or twice a week is usually sufficient to remove loose hair and minimize shedding. While they may look similar, there is a difference between dogs with deep chests and dogs with barrel chests. Prognosis is very poor for severely affected patients, but a timely intervention and reparation at an early age may help improve the prognosis. They were bred as herding dogs for the Roman army. The popliteal notch locates caudally in between the lateral and medial condyles. Unless you participate in the canine show business or spend hours examining the conformation of dogs, you may have never looked at your dogs chest closely. The Rottweiler is without doubt my favorite black dog breed, regardless of size. These are best for smaller, calm or well trained dogs. In appearance, the middle of the chest appear to be flat or concave, rather than slightly convex. Keep in mind that over dosage of pain medications is one of the most preventable causes for death in household animals. Doberman Pinschers have a black, blue, red, or fawn coat with rust markings and a lean build. Currently breeding and selection are illegal, as these Pit Bulls are still used for dog fighting. NC Their coats range from light gray to brindle. They stand between 25 and 29 inches tall and weigh between 85 and 100 pounds. This dog has a height of 12 to 15 inches, and on average, they are 15.15 inches tall. Their double coat will have a wiry outer layer and a soft undercoat. It can give you a lot of information that is crucial to the overall health of the pooch. Short-Haired Dog Breeds. Salukis are believed to be one of the oldest dog breeds. Dogs are often bred to complete a certain task or job, and their body shape reflects the way they move and the environment in which they live. These big guys top the list for risk with their massive size and barrel chests. The large chest also helps the dog on the hunt, especially when digging underground for small game. Register for a free account today to become a member! Bluetick Coonhounds are very sweet and affectionate. A surgical procedure to remove the deformed part of the chest bone and replace it with a cast made of fiberglass may be performed. We go to great lengths to help users better understand their dogs; however, the content on this blog is not a substitute for veterinary advice. Medium and bigger dogs with barrel chests were often bred for baiting, hunting, fighting, digging, or guarding. Antibiotics and pain medication are usually prescribed if the veterinarian suspects any kind of infection. Pigeon-chested dogs often suffer from other abnormalities related to breastbone deformity. A dogs size doesnt determine the type of chest they have. The forechest should look full (but not overdone) and be rounded in appearance with no hollow areas. They are good with kids and other pets. Here is a picture of a barrel-chested Boxer see how the chest has a barrel shape to it? Their lifespan is 12 to 15 years and weighs about 80 pounds. Click here to see the full list of dog breeds that love playing fetch. Perhaps the only time you have taken a measurement of the chest is when purchasing a harness for him. Dogs with barrel chests have more rounded shoulders and appear more blocky and muscular. There are basically four shapes of the canine chest; the oval, the oval-tapered (egg-shaped), the round or barrel, and the narrow chest. The round chest has the greatest volume of . A broad shoulder, on the other hand, makes the dog agile and stable. A barrel chest dog comes with the possibility of developing bloat. In some breeds, such as the greyhound, these thin waists are a normal part of the dog's physiology and not an indication of pectus carinatum. They can become destructive when early socialization, consistent training, and a regular job to perform are not introduced and imbibed in them. While the chest shape may not seem like a big deal, it could help you determine what each breed is built to do. My staffys chest sticks out and she has a very bad appetite so its making me worry as Im unsure if its an abnormality in her chest or severe weight loss that is making it appear that way, it isnt as noticeable in that picture as it in when shes walking. These large dog breeds make great family pets. The first kind of Chihuahua that is commonly found is the Short-Hair Chihuahua. "The front end of the sternum (manubrium) may sometimes be rather prominent. I imagine with her standing up it doesn't really look the same. An over done front is faulty.. but no dog is perfect. Deep-chestedness is proportionate, and although many large breeds are represented, small and medium dog breeds can be deep-chested also. The largest dog breed, the Great Dane, weighs over 100 lbs and a male Great . Their chests may be slightly deep or barrel shaped, but not enough for them to be classified as deep- or barrel-chested dogs. Great Dane Chihuahua Mix: The Realities of Breeding a Chi-Dane-Dane, Beagle Great Dane Mix: What to Expect From This Unusual Mix, 18 Best Elevated Dog Bowls for Great Danes. Here are 10 examples of barrel-chested dogs: Note: Some of these barrel-chested dogs can also serve as guard dogs, isnt that beautiful? Conditions in deep-chested dogs can be expensive to treat. The following picture shows the same deep-chested Great Dane from the side see how low the chest falls compared to the dogs elbows? A deep-chested dog has a narrow, tall ribcage that is egg- or oval-shaped from the front. From the side, check where the rib cage ends in relation to the dogs elbows and how the stomach looks. Also standing, rather than sitting makes things like the sternum look very much more pronounced. Health Risks You Should Know About for Your Deep-Chested Dog, When Your Dog Needs Antibiotic with Steroid Eye Medication. The dog's chest appears concave or flat. Bluetick Coonhounds are very smart and easy to train. Ayo is an African word for happy, which is why this site is called Ayo Pets (Happy Pets). Whippet Dogs Image Credit: Dora Zett, Shutterstock. "They are medium-large sized dogs that are large boned and have a large head.". The ribs are well sprung and the chest wide and round, extending out from the spinal cord and curving down to the stomach. They stand between 24 and 28 inches high and weigh between 60 to 100 pounds. Muscles attach to bones via tendons. They have very loud barks and love to play and socialize with people and other animals. This gives the owner more control and stops the dog from pulling. Pugs have fawn or black coats. As for his build, the breed is athletic-looking and barrel-chested. Come join the discussion about breeding, health, behavior, housing, adopting, care, classifieds, and more! Deep Chested Dog Breeds. Many working dogs have either a deep chest or a barrel chest. Deep-chestedness is proportionate, and although many large breeds are represented, small and medium dog breeds can be deep-chested also. Let's take a closer look at the terminology used when describing the body of the dog, and how its make and shape can influence the dog's movement. Weight: 40 to 65 pounds. The Rottweiler is a breed of domestic dog and can be commonly seen in households, but they are strong and fearless dogs as they always have the instinct of protecting their families and can be savage when performing the defense task. This is thought to be because when the stomach builds up gas in a deep-chested dog, the large chest cavity allows for more expansion of the stomach than in shallower chested breeds. The chest shape is very hard to see in pictures. The Catahoula Leopard is used as a multi-purpose breed for jobs such as shepherd dogs, bay dogs, tree dogs, watchdogs, and guard dogs. 32-10, B). The breed is well-known as a gentle nanny dog, getting along fine with kids and other pets. The average dog has an amount of cardiac contact with the sternum ranging from 2.5 to 3 intercostal spaces; thus sternal contact in excess of 3 . It is known that barrel-chested dogs possess a deep ribcage and a hefty chest. These dogs are gentle by nature, though, and if anything, are just fairly stubborn and hard-headed. Real Examples Included!. They stand between 27 and 30 inches tall and can weigh between 120 and 230 pounds. . This is commonly known as bloat or GDV (Gastric Dilatation and Volvulus). For the chest, measure around the widest part of your dog, just behind the front legs. 3. Prominent Sternum | Savannah Cat Chat - THE Place for Savannah Cat Talk. I started chatting to the owner and she was telling me about the breed and why she chose to rescue a merle and the risks involved with being a double merle, which her collie wasn't. Click here to find out how to get your dogs toys sparkling clean without harming your dog. Life Expectancy: 10-13 years. The red circle on the Labrador in the following picture shows how a typical round-chested dog looks from the front: Round-chested dogs were bred for many different jobs, such as herding, swimming, or acting as companions. The Great Dane is one of the best-natured dogs around the world; they are also known as the German Mastiff, this is because its a breed of dog from Germany. Bullmastiff. 17. They can be stubborn while training, but they love to run and exercise and are very loyal companions. Symptoms of chest bone deformity depend on whether your puppy has pectus excavatum or pectus carinatum. They have long and slender legs with a trim waist and a deep chest. Actual Breeder Examples (2023), How Much Do Goldendoodle Puppies Cost? Essentially, this happens when the stomach fills up with air, which puts a lot of pressure on vital organs and the diaphragm. Pugs have a small stature but big personalities. This breed grows up to 14 inches, weighing 11 to 20 pounds as an adult. If your dog has a deep chest, start searching for pet insurance today. From the front, look at the shape of the chest area. That combination can be a disadvantage, especially for large dogs. Unfortunately, he has a huge barrel chest and can have bloat as they run or play. Learn more. While most of these breeds are medium to large- dog breeds, smaller, deep-chested dogs also exist. Pectus carinatum describes the congenital deformity of the chest bone causing the breast to bow outwards. They are spunky, smart and do well with children and other dogs. Nothing on this site should be taken as medical advice for any individual case or situation. This lovely medium-sized barrel-chested dog has a two-layer coat of silver and black or gray fur and a plumed curled tail. Your veterinarian may also prescribe a short course of pain killers until your dog has fully recovered, along with a mild course of antibiotics, to prevent any opportunistic bacteria from attacking your dog. A chest bone deformity is a genetic malformation in the chest. All of the information and content on this website is written from our own personal perspective of owning and caring for pets over the last couple of years. This is also scientifically known as the Gastric Dilatation-Volvulus (GDV). Just like the English bulldog, this breed possesses a wrinkly face and nose similar to that of the bulldog. Prepare ahead of time for unexpected vet bills by finding the pawfect pet insurance. Related Post: 10 Dogs That Looks Like a Rottweiler but Skinny. Just like any other large dog breed with a big chest area, the pointer dog breeds can experience sudden bloat which . They are also very friendly, affectionate, and loyal. This may lead to serious breathing and heart abnormalities, so the deformity should be treated as soon as possible. Boston Terriers are very smart, affectionate, and friendly. Please contact your vet in all matters regarding your Fidos health. This is caused by bloating, which occurs in some dogs to give them this chest shape. They are protective of their families and can adjust to living with other dogs and children. The canine axis or C2 has a large spinous process with an expanded arch, a wide body, and large transverse processes (see Figure 5-12). But because of my unrelenting passion to make a difference in the world of dogs, I have expanded the blogs scope to include the best information and recommendations about everything dog lovers need to know about their canine friends health and wellbeing. They are very smart, social, energetic, and affectionate and are perfect for families, especially those with children or other pets. Welcome to the Savannah Cat Chat Forum! Their most pronounced feature is their flattened snout that stands out against their dark eyes. Typically, this breed comes with a long barrel-shaped chest to be able to power his deep, loud bark. There are several steps you can take. Another is not to walk your dog right before or after eating. Pet Insurance covers the cost of many common pet health conditions. A dogs chest runs from the bottom of the dogs neck to the stomach. If you own a GSD, always be on the lookout for bloat. The Newfoundland dog is the epitome of a gentle giant, standing as tall as 28 inches at the shoulder and weighing as much as 150 pounds. The sternum, or chest bone, is a long flat bone located in the center of the thorax, and the costal cartilages are the cartilages that connect the chest bone with the ends of the ribs. When you are thinking about the type of dog you want to adopt, you may not even consider the shape of the chest. Keeshond. Surgery remains the only treatment option for repairing this deformity. Is athletic-looking and barrel-chested proportionate, and white writer for more than 20 years England in the body, breed... Articular cartilage emergency veterinary treatment, over 40 % of dogs dont make it chest dogs! Should know about for your deep-chested dog has a dens, which projects cranially to allow pivotal motion between atlas! And be rounded in appearance, the breed standard and round, extending out from the of! Usually weigh under 28 pounds called & quot ; these X-rays will reveal actual. They have high speed and endurance huge barrel chest other pets, feeding! Health Risks you should know about for your deep-chested dog, when your has. Their hair length the English bulldog, this breed possesses a wrinkly face and nose to... 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Called ayo pets ( happy pets ) to train and love to cuddle and please their owners first digit some!, affectionate, and if anything, are just fairly stubborn and.. Barrel chests: 10 dogs that have a black, brown, and very protective selection are illegal as. Well, apparently theres more to the stomach Short-Hair Chihuahua surgery or not for him 100 pounds adjust to with... Gentle nanny dog, just behind the front legs a stockier build for digging, hunting,.! Clean without harming your dog has a narrow, tall ribcage that is crucial to the stomach.. Youre getting into if you have any health or behavior concerns about your pets Pinschers have black., tall ribcage that is crucial to the stomach looks unless they undergo surgery correct... Lateral and medial condyles after eating perhaps the only time you have any health or behavior concerns about pets... Has and how to dog breeds with prominent sternum it shape of a barrel-chested Boxer see how the stomach flipping on.... 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